God Retort
So I got this email responding to my "God on Money" post a week ago but didnt see it. I know it's kind of silly to take the bait, but hell, someone has to pipe up once in a while.
My Responce...
Sigh. Here it comes. The great religious justifications. Your argument is disingenuous, as you very well know the word "God" when used in the United States is heavily associated with the Judeo/Christian tradition. Even mild research will reveal the word God was placed on our money after an aggressive campaign of Christian groups in the 1950's.
As for your weak argument about "value". The word God has value only to those who believe in the concept of a (as you put it) "Higher Power". So what about the people who do not subscribe to the idea that a "Higher Power" even exists? What do we do? Do we have at accept the fact that people like you feel it's your obligation to trample on our rights as Americans? Isn't one of our Constitutions greatest qualities is it's mandate to protect the minority in America?
You ask "how can Satan be an Atheist?"
Well, considering my post does not even mention this aspect of Christianity, your question leads me to a new conclusion concerning our correspondence.
1. You incapable of engaging in a meaningful conversation concerning religion
2. You are most likely insane.
Have fun kneeling and talking to yourself pal.
Anonymous said....
The phrase on the dollar is not an endorsement of God or church. It’s a symbol, a symbolic phrase of a value. A value that American freedoms are granted to us by a 'higher power'. Not a king or president. We commemorate that value in prose and coin it. We're not endorsing a religion, or requiring you to submit to Islam before you spend this buck.
As far as your atheistic self, how can Satan be an Atheist? If God can’t exist, neither can Satan. ...do you see the hypocritical lemming in your rant? Perhaps if Atheist like you continue to contribute beautiful things to mankind, in two hundred years or so your value will be praised.
We need God to keep us from thinking we're God.
My Responce...
Sigh. Here it comes. The great religious justifications. Your argument is disingenuous, as you very well know the word "God" when used in the United States is heavily associated with the Judeo/Christian tradition. Even mild research will reveal the word God was placed on our money after an aggressive campaign of Christian groups in the 1950's.
As for your weak argument about "value". The word God has value only to those who believe in the concept of a (as you put it) "Higher Power". So what about the people who do not subscribe to the idea that a "Higher Power" even exists? What do we do? Do we have at accept the fact that people like you feel it's your obligation to trample on our rights as Americans? Isn't one of our Constitutions greatest qualities is it's mandate to protect the minority in America?
You ask "how can Satan be an Atheist?"
Well, considering my post does not even mention this aspect of Christianity, your question leads me to a new conclusion concerning our correspondence.
1. You incapable of engaging in a meaningful conversation concerning religion
2. You are most likely insane.
Have fun kneeling and talking to yourself pal.
posted by MBO at 9:30 AM
11 Comments:
haha! Adam: 1
Retard: 0
Personally, I couldn't care less what it says on my money as it is just currency. It could say "Your mother is a bestial whore whose gaping hole will consume the whole of mankind" and I really wouldn't be phased.
But, playing devil's advocate here, no one is requiring atheists to earn or spend US currency which contains the word "God", right? There's not really an infringement on any Constitutional right there ... you're not constitutionally guaranteed income and spending power ... it's a privilege. And there's no one stopping you from asking your employer to pay you in pesos and attempting to spend said pesos, right?
But, like I said, it doesn't matter to me personally. Most (about 90%) of my spending is via credit and debit cards and none of those say "God Save Citibank" on them.
yea go adam! hes the real materdebater
I dunno dude. Seems like your conveniently overlooking the fundamental constitutional principal of the separation of church and state. Our currency represents our government yes? Why should I as an American be subjected to anything religious/spiritual that has been integrated into my government. Why should I have to go out of my way, and be inconvenienced, to ask for a paycheck (as you suggested) in Pesos when the Religious guy next to me doesn't?
Now, what the religious influence would like us to believe is that the word "god" is not a religious concept. This is a slippery argument that holds hands perfectly with the Fundamentalist Christian world view. When they disagree with someone they simply redefine science and language to suit their moral agenda.
Fuck that. Fuck them.
My Responce...
Sigh. Here it comes. The great religious justifications.
My post in no way meant to justify religion or imply our government wants us all to convert to Christianity by brainwashing us with words on our coins. I’m simply trying to shed some light onto your dissatisfaction with the currency. But your knee jerk reaction is to apply a religious right wing nut job label to anyone who doesn’t feel the way you do.
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Your argument is disingenuous, as you very well know the word "God" when used in the United States is heavily associated with the Judeo/Christian tradition.
And thats exactly the value we chose to commemorate. Our fucking founders beliefs, values and presence. Like Claypool says “Hats off to the ones before me”. Had our founders been Buddhist monks the currency would have ‘trust in Buddha’.
********
Even mild research will reveal the word God was placed on our money after an aggressive campaign of Christian groups in the 1950's.
Someone had to remind us what our foundation was built on…. Like it or not, it was the ten commandments. We cant fit all ten on a penny so we summed it up with phrases like ‘under God’ and when it comes to cash…’In God We Trust’.
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As for your weak argument about "value". The word God has value only to those who believe in the concept of a (as you put it) "Higher Power". So what about the people who do not subscribe to the idea that a "Higher Power" even exists? What do we do?
Call it what you want…your soul, your conscious, your spirit, your beliefs, your bong, mother Nature or the Cosmos… that’s the beauty of this country…anything can be your concept of God.
********
Do we have at accept the fact that people like you feel it's your obligation to trample on our rights as Americans? Isn't one of our Constitutions greatest qualities is it's mandate to protect the minority in America?
Huh? Uhh Nobodys getting their rights trampled on…just their feelings.
********
You ask "how can Satan be an Atheist?"
Well, considering my post does not even mention this aspect of Christianity, your question leads me to a new conclusion concerning our correspondence.
I thought you refered to yourself as Satan…maybe it was on MIRV board or somewhere, I think in your profile you call yourself Satan …but in this virtual world I could be mistaken…maybe it was Zoltron.
********
1. You incapable of engaging in a meaningful conversation concerning religion
Its hard when your mind is sealed shut with no hope of considering a wider perspective. Do you understand what it means to commemorate things? Do you understand why we trust in god...would you rather trust in George Bush? Do you know what an inalienable right is?
********
2. You are most likely insane.
Hey your the one giving away your music …he he, that was a joke, I think MBO kicks ass….Atheist or not… unless your trying to start the Atheist jihad with this stamping of the dollar.
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Have fun kneeling and talking to yourself pal.
The only thing that brings me to my knees is people who cant see beyond the word God, weak leaders, (which is why we have this problem) and Gibson guitars.
Cha-Ching
Umm..sorry dude, but your just not answering my questions.
"And thats exactly the value we chose to commemorate. Our fucking founders beliefs, values and presence. Like Claypool says “Hats off to the ones before me”. Had our founders been Buddhist monks the currency would have ‘trust in Buddha’.
Answer this please: Why does the concept of value have to be associated with the word "God"?
"Someone had to remind us what our foundation was built on…. Like it or not, it was the ten commandments. We cant fit all ten on a penny so we summed it up with phrases like ‘under God’ and when it comes to cash…’In God We Trust’.
I dont know who told you the foundation of our country was built on the 10 Commandments, but they are gravely wrong.
And excuse me? Someone had to remind us? You are familiar with a concept called separation of CHURCH and STATE. Yes? Money is made by the STATE. Why does God or ANY concept of spirituality have to be infused with my government to connote "value". Again, GOD only has VALUE to people who believe in the concept. Your argument implies that people who do not believe in God (in any manifestation) can not express "value". Dude. Think about this before you answer.
"Call it what you want…your soul, your conscious, your spirit, your beliefs, your bong, mother Nature or the Cosmos… that’s the beauty of this country…anything can be your concept of God."
I don't believe that any of these concepts, no matter how you dress them up, should be anywhere near our government And can you honestly say that the majority of the people in this country do not associate the word God with some sort of Christian tradition? Can you?
"Huh? Uhh Nobodys getting their rights trampled on…just their feelings."
No. I am being subjected to flagrant violation of Church and State. I have the right as an American NOT to have my government represent ANY form of spirituality. Tradition and Value are not words that are owned by religions and religious dogma. I thought money was valuable because it represents GOLD?
"I thought you refered to yourself as Satan…maybe it was on MIRV board or somewhere, I think in your profile you call yourself Satan …but in this virtual world I could be mistaken…maybe it was Zoltron."
I don't care how or what people call themselves in the private sector. Just don't put it on my money.
"Hey your the one giving away your music …he he, that was a joke, I think MBO kicks ass….Atheist or not… unless your trying to start the Atheist jihad with this stamping of the dollar."
Point taken. Insane being a relative term. If you could, Id be interested in hearing your take on the book "The End of Faith". Check it out and see if some of Harris arguments dont sway your opinions on the inclusion of God in our government's doings..
Adam --
I assume you're mbo, so ...
Keep in mind I was just playing devil's advocate and that's not necessarily the opinion I stand behind. Like I said, I don't care what it says on my money ... it will still spend the same. Perhaps it should be changed to "In cash we trust" ... at least then we're being honest. But, on to my point ...
You say "Seems like your conveniently overlooking the fundamental constitutional principal of the separation of church and state."
To which I say, read the entire text of the Constitution. Nowhere in there does it mention the concept of separation of church and state.
In the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, it says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". This regards laws and does not literally guarantee a separation of church and the government except where it applies to laws.
Since there is no law regarding the word God on our money (as far as I could find), the phrase "In God We Trust" on our money is not a violation of that Constitutional right.
Technically where the violation of your Constitutional rights occurred was in US, Title 36, Section 302, where Congress designated "In God We Trust" as the national motto and which Eisenhower signed in to law in 1956.
The phrase "separation of church and state" actually came from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson quoted here from wikipedia: "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."
I understand your point that you shouldn't have to have the word "God" on your money. I'm agnostic and don't think it should be there either, but I'm not going to fight it.
BTW, by the same arguments that you have, I assume that you work on Easter and Christmas, right? I mean, your company gives you those holidays because they're national holidays, but if you partake of them then you're just supporting a combination of church and state, yes? And I know you wouldn't want to do that. ;) So, I guess I can call you at your desk on 12/25?
BTW, if you look up "god" on dictionary.com, one of the definitions is:
6. A powerful ruler or despot.
Looking up "despot", gives use the following definition:
2. any tyrant or oppressor.
So, with Bush in office, it seems only fitting to have "In God We Trust" on our money.
I think Mr. Rush’s post is grounded in reality. MBO is making the Church n State connection…not the currency. If our money had the sword of Islam on it then I would support MBO stance and fight to remove it. Because Islam is not part of our founders beliefs.
mbo said-
Answer this please: Why does the concept of value have to be associated with the word "God"?
Value is like the word ‘quality’ it is defined by each individual. Only you can define what you value. One thing our founders valued is God. Our money commemorates that. Just like the other images and words on the currency they all seek to say thanks for what you did, we won’t forget it or you and what you believe in.
mbo said-
And excuse me? Someone had to remind us? You are familiar with a concept called separation of CHURCH and STATE. Yes? Money is made by the STATE. Why does God or ANY concept of spirituality have to be infused with my government to connote "value".
If we follow your logic that spirituality cannot be infused with our Gov., then everyone in Government would have to be Atheist. All military, all mailmen, everyone. Like Iran.
mbo said-
Again, GOD only has VALUE to people who believe in the concept. Your argument implies that people who do not believe in God (in any manifestation) can not express "value". Dude. Think about this before you answer.
Do you know what an inalienable right is? ..explain.
"I think Mr. Rush’s post is grounded in reality."
Actually, I was just arguing for argument's sake. Giving dumb arguments in response to Adam's post was just a way to amuse myself by imagining Adam's head exploding from the inanity of my points. My post was actually grounded in boredom, not reality. I don't believe any of the bullshit I spouted.
For the record here's what I really believe:
1. The intent of the First Amendment probably was to provide for separation of church and state, but it's open to interpretation (and that's the Supreme Court's job, not mine).
2. Having the word "God" on our currency and in our national motto is wrong because it does not represent the whole of our nation. Defending it as our "founder's beliefs" is bullshit. Some of our founders also were racist pieces of shit and believed in slavery. Does that mean that we should accept a national motto of "White makes right"?
3. This issue is minor compared to other issues facing our country these days so I'm not likely to stand up and fight for one side or the other.
4. As the brilliant philosopher Trent Reznor once said, "God is dead and no one cares. If there is a hell I'll see you there".
Devils advocate arguments rule. I understand your stance and I will help you rub one out for 5$ behind the dumpster at 7-11 on Blacow Ave in Fremont.
In the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, it says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". This regards laws and does not literally guarantee a separation of church and the government except where it applies to laws.
Yep, your correct. Church and State is not a Constitutionally protected mandate. BUT, I feel the establishment clause is pretty clear. I will be more specific next time.
And yes, I believe Eisenhower was clearly violating the establishment clause when he signed the Law making it mandatory that all coinage and paper currency display the motto "In God We Trust."
I will maintain, when this argument is parsed down, the real issue here is how is the Establishment clause is interpreted. I believe in a strict interpretation, most Americans don't . Most Americans don't see the harm in a Government that does not represent all the people and are willing to let it slide. To me, this is the tip of a horrific iceberg.
And yes your correect, there are many examples of state sponsored religious practice. Hey Im no fan of Easter and Christmas and (like crossing out the word God on money) I do what I can to protest them. Have I worked on Holidays because I don't really believe in them? Sure, I do it all the time. I also work on non state sponsored holidays,Yom Kippur, etc. So do you. I have no problem if people can clear it with their work to go worship whatever stupid fucked up garbage that they want to. Should the State mandate it? Nope.
As for Anonymous:
Value is like the word ‘quality’ it is defined by each individual. Only you can define what you value. One thing our founders valued is God. Our money commemorates that. Just like the other images and words on the currency they all seek to say thanks for what you did, we won’t forget it or you and what you believe in.
So you say. Even mild research will reveal that our founding fathers had a much better slogan that worked wonderfully: "E Pluribus Unum,". This decoration was devised under Franklin, Adams and Jefferson in 1782, five years before the Constitutional convention. This phrase worked perfectly until a century later (1861) when a Revered Watson rallied to place "In God We Trust" on our coins, arguing on the theological premise that in a Judeo-Christian nation, 'There is but one God.'
Anonymous, forgive me, but perhaps I am asking you the wrong question. How about this:
Do you believe that the United States is a Judeo-Christian nation? Simple question. Yes or no will do.
Look. I have no trouble honoring our traditions, I just maintain there are countless ways to do it without the inclusion of any spiritual concepts. It's a slippery slope, because once you include the word "God" in a Goverment that is designed to represent all the people then people who do not believe in any form of God are by default excluded.
So why do we do it?
The answer is simple, we do it because Forty-four percent of the American population is convinced that Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead sometime in the next fifty years.
Shit, who needs horror films? We are living in one.
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